Is it better to use an unsuitable hashing algorithm instead of none at all?
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I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high entropy.
passwords hash
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up vote
13
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I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high entropy.
passwords hash
So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
5
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
1
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
1
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high entropy.
passwords hash
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high entropy.
passwords hash
passwords hash
edited 9 hours ago
asked 10 hours ago
JFB
10115
10115
So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
5
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
1
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
1
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
5
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
1
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
1
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
5
5
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
1
1
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
1
1
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
up vote
34
down vote
The real answer to your question is simply do not store the passwords there if you cannot properly protect them.
"The system does not support proper password hashing algorithms" is not a valid excuse to compromise the security of your users. Either find a way to properly hash passwords using a strong and properly configured algorithm or do not store them.
But to provide a direct answer to your question: yes, something is better than nothing. SHA-1 or SHA-2 is definitely an improvement over plaintext.
Edit based on comments:
To answer the "then where should the passwords go?" question - Based on the phrasing I am assuming there is a new feature/request for the software that requires the system to store passwords.
If the system cannot properly and securely store passwords (by modern security standards) then I (personally) would reject the request. Intentionally practicing poor security because of legacy system constraints or to appease a business use case is bad security practice. I would inform whoever made the request that I have two viable options:
1.) We have to completely overhaul the system to one that supports modern security practices (such as proper cryptographic password hashing).
2.) I simply cannot add the new feature/request to the existing system for it would compromise security.
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
Yes, a weak hash is better than no hash.
The reasons for hashing your passwords are, in the event that your password db is stolen:
- Prevent the attacker from trivially obtaining the plaintext passwords.
- Prevent the attacker from knowing which users have the same password (this is accomplished via giving each user a unique salt.
1 is an arms race: you want to use a bigger, slower hash function so that it costs the attacker more in electricity to perform the brute-force hash cracking. A single iteration of SHA-1/2 is better than no hash because the attacker has to do some cracking. A single iteration of salted SHA-1/2 will force them to do some cracking without being able to use pre-computed rainbow tables. Moving up to the fancier password hashes (argon2, bcrypt or the older scrypt, pbkdf2) with a higher work factor will crank up the electricity costs of the crack even further.
Using any cryptographic hash (even ones not recommended for passwords, like SHA-1, SHA-2) will give the benefits of 2.
At its core, PBKDF2 is just iterated and salted SHA-1/2, so I would do some googling for PBKDF2 implementations, and build your wrapper around SHA-1/2 that emulates it (or better, go all the way and actually implement PBKDF2).
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
As others have said, try to find a strong standalone implementation in your platform's language if at all possible.
But if you can't use a strong hash ... then you should definitely still hash your users' passwords, even with a weak hash - because even a weak hash will protect a strong password.
When tools like hashcat can guess billions of passwords per second, weak hashes won't protect weak passwords. But if one of your security-conscious users users an uncrackable password like 'SDXBZsRVBKVnXznpLTBMIKhTX' or 'afferently-imitatee-snowmelt-heirdom-leeching' ... even a weak hash like SHA1 will put that password out of reach.
By using even a weak hash, you can at least enable your savvy users to protect themselves even though your system is weak. (And if you have the ability to stretch - to use the same algorithm thousands of times in a row - this will slow down the attacker as well).
But your savvy users won't be reusing passwords, so even this is of limited value (except for "semi-savvy" users who have picked passwords strong enough to resist bruteforce, but may be reusing that password elsewhere or using a human-parseable password selection scheme ... so using even a weak hash will protect these users as well).
Your best option for all users is to find a way to use a strong hash.
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I agree with Mike and Royce in their answers, and don't feel the need to repeat what they covered well. However I wanted to more directly address this comment of yours:
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on
that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be
used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high
entropy.
This piece of information is both important and not-important. Here's why:
The case for password hashing
It's always important to remember why we hash passwords, and it all boils down to password reuse. The reason why password hashing is so important is because when your system gets compromised and passwords are stolen, it isn't just access to your site that is compromised, but access to every site where your users have re-used the same email/password combination which (as we know) happens a lot. Password hashing is about protecting users from themselves. If absolutely everyone used strong and unique passwords on every site, then password hashing would be a lot less necessary. It would still have some value because there are use cases where a hacker might gain read-only access to a database dump, so hashed passwords can provide some protection against attackers getting actual access to your system in. However, if people used strong and unique passwords everywhere then password hashing would become more of a secondary concern instead of the absolutely-critical necessity it is today.
So, if you can guarantee that every user of your system will only ever use strong and unique passwords (i.e. passwords that have not been used on other sites), then I think that even something simple like SHA2 would actually be a perfectly reasonable choice, regardless of whether or not better functions were available.
BUT: changing business needs
However, I would encourage you to double check your assumptions (that strong unique passwords will be the only ones ever in your system). I've seen business needs change to often in the past to rely on assumptions like that in critical business areas (which this may not be - obviously I don't know what this does). The problem is that business needs change. Maybe it's just me, but in my experience things that were meant to be temporary or limited to just a couple people inevitably turn into critical business applications used by everyone in the company, and all of a sudden you have a weak password scheme protecting critical business infrastructure. It won't always happen because people are trying to cut corners, but because 12 months down the road you forget that you didn't use a great password hash, or you leave and then next guy doesn't look into it, or you're under pressure to meet a deadline and you forget, or, or, or...
In my experience businesses end up having security breaches not because security is hard but because they don't understand the need for spending time (aka money) on good security practices and cut corners where they shouldn't. Sure, right now a great password hashing scheme doesn't matter, but can you really guarantee that that won't change in the future? If you don't have time to put in proper password hashing now, can you guarantee that when the needs change and it suddenly does matter, that you will have time to do it right then?
Of course at the end of the day every business needs to make money, and sometimes "Let's keep this simple for now to get this out the door" is a perfectly reasonable answer. Just be careful though because making that decision too often is how companies end up with systems filled with security holes. As a company you have to find that balance for yourself. The trouble is that when companies chronically skimp on the security it is ultimately their customers that hurt the most.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
YES, even low quality hash is much better than storing passwords in plaintext
If I understand you update, someone else will be doing the authentication (unrelated to you and your database), and you will use your password hash database only for duplicate password detection? Requirement of determining the password entropy would be based on plaintext, and is unrelated to storing password hashes, right?
Then you can store in your hash database just a small part of calculated sha2 hash of salt+plaintext (for example, storing only low 8 bytes of 32 bytes returned by sha256), which will be plenty enough to detect duplicates with no false positives in real life, but still not enough to allow the attacker to use rainbow tables to guess original password in case your database is stolen.
(Disclaimer: if you ARE doing authentication and not only duplicate password detection, than dropping part ot the hash would obviously be terrible idea!)
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
To answer your question: yes, use the best algorithm you have access to. If you have several, you might combine them (note: concatenation of passwords, e.g. sha1(password)+md5sum(password), is more vulnerable to guessing, since an attacker could pick which hash they want to guess, but collisions are much less likely, since both passwords have to match. Do use random, different salt for each password.
You say your system "doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords". I would encourage you to reexamine that assumption.
Almost every modern programming language has implementations of secure hashes. You do not necessarily need it implemented in a pre-made, pre-installed library - for example, if your program is written in C, you should be able to find implementations of any hash in C, as a stand-alone function. Even tiny processors like Arduino have bcrypt and PBKDF2, off the shelf. The extra labour involved is minimal. You could even implement it yourself (but be very careful, and test very thoroughly!).
I do not doubt that there are exceptions, but there aren't many.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
The strict answer to your question is yes. The reason is that fast hashes won't protect weak passwords, but they will protect very strong ones, and that is strictly better than plaintext.
However, if you have SHA-1 or SHA-2 there are are very few (if any!) excuses not to use PBKDF2. Yeah, the common advice is "don't roll your own crypto," but if you've got SHA-1 or SHA-2 that's already the key building block for PBKDF2, and for the case of password hashing writing your own implementation of PBKDF2 can hardly be worse than not. Here's the relevant RFC and section:
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2898#section-5.2
When they say "pseudorandom function" you should use some HMAC variant (ideally HMAC-SHA-512, but any of them will do). Your library likely already has HMAC implementations, but if it doesn't, password hashing is again a case where implementing your own can't be worse than not.
add a comment |
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
34
down vote
The real answer to your question is simply do not store the passwords there if you cannot properly protect them.
"The system does not support proper password hashing algorithms" is not a valid excuse to compromise the security of your users. Either find a way to properly hash passwords using a strong and properly configured algorithm or do not store them.
But to provide a direct answer to your question: yes, something is better than nothing. SHA-1 or SHA-2 is definitely an improvement over plaintext.
Edit based on comments:
To answer the "then where should the passwords go?" question - Based on the phrasing I am assuming there is a new feature/request for the software that requires the system to store passwords.
If the system cannot properly and securely store passwords (by modern security standards) then I (personally) would reject the request. Intentionally practicing poor security because of legacy system constraints or to appease a business use case is bad security practice. I would inform whoever made the request that I have two viable options:
1.) We have to completely overhaul the system to one that supports modern security practices (such as proper cryptographic password hashing).
2.) I simply cannot add the new feature/request to the existing system for it would compromise security.
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
34
down vote
The real answer to your question is simply do not store the passwords there if you cannot properly protect them.
"The system does not support proper password hashing algorithms" is not a valid excuse to compromise the security of your users. Either find a way to properly hash passwords using a strong and properly configured algorithm or do not store them.
But to provide a direct answer to your question: yes, something is better than nothing. SHA-1 or SHA-2 is definitely an improvement over plaintext.
Edit based on comments:
To answer the "then where should the passwords go?" question - Based on the phrasing I am assuming there is a new feature/request for the software that requires the system to store passwords.
If the system cannot properly and securely store passwords (by modern security standards) then I (personally) would reject the request. Intentionally practicing poor security because of legacy system constraints or to appease a business use case is bad security practice. I would inform whoever made the request that I have two viable options:
1.) We have to completely overhaul the system to one that supports modern security practices (such as proper cryptographic password hashing).
2.) I simply cannot add the new feature/request to the existing system for it would compromise security.
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
34
down vote
up vote
34
down vote
The real answer to your question is simply do not store the passwords there if you cannot properly protect them.
"The system does not support proper password hashing algorithms" is not a valid excuse to compromise the security of your users. Either find a way to properly hash passwords using a strong and properly configured algorithm or do not store them.
But to provide a direct answer to your question: yes, something is better than nothing. SHA-1 or SHA-2 is definitely an improvement over plaintext.
Edit based on comments:
To answer the "then where should the passwords go?" question - Based on the phrasing I am assuming there is a new feature/request for the software that requires the system to store passwords.
If the system cannot properly and securely store passwords (by modern security standards) then I (personally) would reject the request. Intentionally practicing poor security because of legacy system constraints or to appease a business use case is bad security practice. I would inform whoever made the request that I have two viable options:
1.) We have to completely overhaul the system to one that supports modern security practices (such as proper cryptographic password hashing).
2.) I simply cannot add the new feature/request to the existing system for it would compromise security.
The real answer to your question is simply do not store the passwords there if you cannot properly protect them.
"The system does not support proper password hashing algorithms" is not a valid excuse to compromise the security of your users. Either find a way to properly hash passwords using a strong and properly configured algorithm or do not store them.
But to provide a direct answer to your question: yes, something is better than nothing. SHA-1 or SHA-2 is definitely an improvement over plaintext.
Edit based on comments:
To answer the "then where should the passwords go?" question - Based on the phrasing I am assuming there is a new feature/request for the software that requires the system to store passwords.
If the system cannot properly and securely store passwords (by modern security standards) then I (personally) would reject the request. Intentionally practicing poor security because of legacy system constraints or to appease a business use case is bad security practice. I would inform whoever made the request that I have two viable options:
1.) We have to completely overhaul the system to one that supports modern security practices (such as proper cryptographic password hashing).
2.) I simply cannot add the new feature/request to the existing system for it would compromise security.
edited 6 hours ago
Community♦
1
1
answered 10 hours ago
dFrancisco
1,737423
1,737423
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
I updated my question with additional information, does that help?
– JFB
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
@JFB Not overly. The extra info is good, and means that the damage done by compromising weakly hashed, strong, never re-used passwords is obvious less harmful than compromising genuine ordinary users passwords but doesn't help focus my answer too much.
– dFrancisco
9 hours ago
1
1
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
@Gherman as with anything, you do a cost/benefit analysis and let the decision-maker and risk owner decide.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
4
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
@dFrancisco refusing to add a new feature is fine if you are the system owner, but you have no basis to refuse if you are the admin or the developer. Advise and educate is your role as a security professional.
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
4
4
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
It would be better to rephrase your refusal in business terms rather than just the vague "security." E.g., "We would be knowingly storing sensitive data in a way that makes it easier for an attacker to obtain it. This may be a violation of GDRP/HIPPA/any-relevant-standard-the-company-might-get-in-trouble-for-breaking and open us up to legal consequences." But this is the correct course of action for generic user management.
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
Yes, a weak hash is better than no hash.
The reasons for hashing your passwords are, in the event that your password db is stolen:
- Prevent the attacker from trivially obtaining the plaintext passwords.
- Prevent the attacker from knowing which users have the same password (this is accomplished via giving each user a unique salt.
1 is an arms race: you want to use a bigger, slower hash function so that it costs the attacker more in electricity to perform the brute-force hash cracking. A single iteration of SHA-1/2 is better than no hash because the attacker has to do some cracking. A single iteration of salted SHA-1/2 will force them to do some cracking without being able to use pre-computed rainbow tables. Moving up to the fancier password hashes (argon2, bcrypt or the older scrypt, pbkdf2) with a higher work factor will crank up the electricity costs of the crack even further.
Using any cryptographic hash (even ones not recommended for passwords, like SHA-1, SHA-2) will give the benefits of 2.
At its core, PBKDF2 is just iterated and salted SHA-1/2, so I would do some googling for PBKDF2 implementations, and build your wrapper around SHA-1/2 that emulates it (or better, go all the way and actually implement PBKDF2).
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
Yes, a weak hash is better than no hash.
The reasons for hashing your passwords are, in the event that your password db is stolen:
- Prevent the attacker from trivially obtaining the plaintext passwords.
- Prevent the attacker from knowing which users have the same password (this is accomplished via giving each user a unique salt.
1 is an arms race: you want to use a bigger, slower hash function so that it costs the attacker more in electricity to perform the brute-force hash cracking. A single iteration of SHA-1/2 is better than no hash because the attacker has to do some cracking. A single iteration of salted SHA-1/2 will force them to do some cracking without being able to use pre-computed rainbow tables. Moving up to the fancier password hashes (argon2, bcrypt or the older scrypt, pbkdf2) with a higher work factor will crank up the electricity costs of the crack even further.
Using any cryptographic hash (even ones not recommended for passwords, like SHA-1, SHA-2) will give the benefits of 2.
At its core, PBKDF2 is just iterated and salted SHA-1/2, so I would do some googling for PBKDF2 implementations, and build your wrapper around SHA-1/2 that emulates it (or better, go all the way and actually implement PBKDF2).
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
Yes, a weak hash is better than no hash.
The reasons for hashing your passwords are, in the event that your password db is stolen:
- Prevent the attacker from trivially obtaining the plaintext passwords.
- Prevent the attacker from knowing which users have the same password (this is accomplished via giving each user a unique salt.
1 is an arms race: you want to use a bigger, slower hash function so that it costs the attacker more in electricity to perform the brute-force hash cracking. A single iteration of SHA-1/2 is better than no hash because the attacker has to do some cracking. A single iteration of salted SHA-1/2 will force them to do some cracking without being able to use pre-computed rainbow tables. Moving up to the fancier password hashes (argon2, bcrypt or the older scrypt, pbkdf2) with a higher work factor will crank up the electricity costs of the crack even further.
Using any cryptographic hash (even ones not recommended for passwords, like SHA-1, SHA-2) will give the benefits of 2.
At its core, PBKDF2 is just iterated and salted SHA-1/2, so I would do some googling for PBKDF2 implementations, and build your wrapper around SHA-1/2 that emulates it (or better, go all the way and actually implement PBKDF2).
Yes, a weak hash is better than no hash.
The reasons for hashing your passwords are, in the event that your password db is stolen:
- Prevent the attacker from trivially obtaining the plaintext passwords.
- Prevent the attacker from knowing which users have the same password (this is accomplished via giving each user a unique salt.
1 is an arms race: you want to use a bigger, slower hash function so that it costs the attacker more in electricity to perform the brute-force hash cracking. A single iteration of SHA-1/2 is better than no hash because the attacker has to do some cracking. A single iteration of salted SHA-1/2 will force them to do some cracking without being able to use pre-computed rainbow tables. Moving up to the fancier password hashes (argon2, bcrypt or the older scrypt, pbkdf2) with a higher work factor will crank up the electricity costs of the crack even further.
Using any cryptographic hash (even ones not recommended for passwords, like SHA-1, SHA-2) will give the benefits of 2.
At its core, PBKDF2 is just iterated and salted SHA-1/2, so I would do some googling for PBKDF2 implementations, and build your wrapper around SHA-1/2 that emulates it (or better, go all the way and actually implement PBKDF2).
edited 10 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Mike Ounsworth
37.2k1486134
37.2k1486134
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
3
3
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
I'd suggest including Argon2 in your list, since it's currently the preferred algorithm when GPUs or FPGA/ASIC cracking are in your threat model (which they should be).
– Polynomial
10 hours ago
2
2
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
+1. Note that this actually depends on how long your user base is willing to wait for auth (and how much load your auth systems can take in parallel). At the sub-100ms mark, bcrypt is actually more resistant to bruteforce. Only above ~1s/auth does Argon2 become superior. Refs: twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1063895918246862848, twitter.com/Sc00bzT/status/1041875128311840768
– Royce Williams
10 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
Is it really? You tell me you securely store my data, I give you sensitive data to store, you then lose the data because it's not actually secure, wouldn't it be better to be up front and state you're not securely storing the data in the first place? ...idealistically speaking
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
SHA-1 isn't breached against preimage yet. It will hold.
– Joshua
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
As others have said, try to find a strong standalone implementation in your platform's language if at all possible.
But if you can't use a strong hash ... then you should definitely still hash your users' passwords, even with a weak hash - because even a weak hash will protect a strong password.
When tools like hashcat can guess billions of passwords per second, weak hashes won't protect weak passwords. But if one of your security-conscious users users an uncrackable password like 'SDXBZsRVBKVnXznpLTBMIKhTX' or 'afferently-imitatee-snowmelt-heirdom-leeching' ... even a weak hash like SHA1 will put that password out of reach.
By using even a weak hash, you can at least enable your savvy users to protect themselves even though your system is weak. (And if you have the ability to stretch - to use the same algorithm thousands of times in a row - this will slow down the attacker as well).
But your savvy users won't be reusing passwords, so even this is of limited value (except for "semi-savvy" users who have picked passwords strong enough to resist bruteforce, but may be reusing that password elsewhere or using a human-parseable password selection scheme ... so using even a weak hash will protect these users as well).
Your best option for all users is to find a way to use a strong hash.
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
As others have said, try to find a strong standalone implementation in your platform's language if at all possible.
But if you can't use a strong hash ... then you should definitely still hash your users' passwords, even with a weak hash - because even a weak hash will protect a strong password.
When tools like hashcat can guess billions of passwords per second, weak hashes won't protect weak passwords. But if one of your security-conscious users users an uncrackable password like 'SDXBZsRVBKVnXznpLTBMIKhTX' or 'afferently-imitatee-snowmelt-heirdom-leeching' ... even a weak hash like SHA1 will put that password out of reach.
By using even a weak hash, you can at least enable your savvy users to protect themselves even though your system is weak. (And if you have the ability to stretch - to use the same algorithm thousands of times in a row - this will slow down the attacker as well).
But your savvy users won't be reusing passwords, so even this is of limited value (except for "semi-savvy" users who have picked passwords strong enough to resist bruteforce, but may be reusing that password elsewhere or using a human-parseable password selection scheme ... so using even a weak hash will protect these users as well).
Your best option for all users is to find a way to use a strong hash.
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
As others have said, try to find a strong standalone implementation in your platform's language if at all possible.
But if you can't use a strong hash ... then you should definitely still hash your users' passwords, even with a weak hash - because even a weak hash will protect a strong password.
When tools like hashcat can guess billions of passwords per second, weak hashes won't protect weak passwords. But if one of your security-conscious users users an uncrackable password like 'SDXBZsRVBKVnXznpLTBMIKhTX' or 'afferently-imitatee-snowmelt-heirdom-leeching' ... even a weak hash like SHA1 will put that password out of reach.
By using even a weak hash, you can at least enable your savvy users to protect themselves even though your system is weak. (And if you have the ability to stretch - to use the same algorithm thousands of times in a row - this will slow down the attacker as well).
But your savvy users won't be reusing passwords, so even this is of limited value (except for "semi-savvy" users who have picked passwords strong enough to resist bruteforce, but may be reusing that password elsewhere or using a human-parseable password selection scheme ... so using even a weak hash will protect these users as well).
Your best option for all users is to find a way to use a strong hash.
As others have said, try to find a strong standalone implementation in your platform's language if at all possible.
But if you can't use a strong hash ... then you should definitely still hash your users' passwords, even with a weak hash - because even a weak hash will protect a strong password.
When tools like hashcat can guess billions of passwords per second, weak hashes won't protect weak passwords. But if one of your security-conscious users users an uncrackable password like 'SDXBZsRVBKVnXznpLTBMIKhTX' or 'afferently-imitatee-snowmelt-heirdom-leeching' ... even a weak hash like SHA1 will put that password out of reach.
By using even a weak hash, you can at least enable your savvy users to protect themselves even though your system is weak. (And if you have the ability to stretch - to use the same algorithm thousands of times in a row - this will slow down the attacker as well).
But your savvy users won't be reusing passwords, so even this is of limited value (except for "semi-savvy" users who have picked passwords strong enough to resist bruteforce, but may be reusing that password elsewhere or using a human-parseable password selection scheme ... so using even a weak hash will protect these users as well).
Your best option for all users is to find a way to use a strong hash.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Royce Williams
4,80811338
4,80811338
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
I updated my question with additional information adressing your point of being able to at least protect strong, unique passwords
– JFB
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
Password reuse is when users choose to use the same password across multiple sites (Facebook, their bank, etc.) ... not when two users are using the same password on the same site.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
I agree, but with the added caveat that you should NOT use SHA-1 to produce a digest of any sensitive data (like passwords) without using random salt to address password re-use, plus key stretching.
– Craig
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I agree with Mike and Royce in their answers, and don't feel the need to repeat what they covered well. However I wanted to more directly address this comment of yours:
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on
that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be
used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high
entropy.
This piece of information is both important and not-important. Here's why:
The case for password hashing
It's always important to remember why we hash passwords, and it all boils down to password reuse. The reason why password hashing is so important is because when your system gets compromised and passwords are stolen, it isn't just access to your site that is compromised, but access to every site where your users have re-used the same email/password combination which (as we know) happens a lot. Password hashing is about protecting users from themselves. If absolutely everyone used strong and unique passwords on every site, then password hashing would be a lot less necessary. It would still have some value because there are use cases where a hacker might gain read-only access to a database dump, so hashed passwords can provide some protection against attackers getting actual access to your system in. However, if people used strong and unique passwords everywhere then password hashing would become more of a secondary concern instead of the absolutely-critical necessity it is today.
So, if you can guarantee that every user of your system will only ever use strong and unique passwords (i.e. passwords that have not been used on other sites), then I think that even something simple like SHA2 would actually be a perfectly reasonable choice, regardless of whether or not better functions were available.
BUT: changing business needs
However, I would encourage you to double check your assumptions (that strong unique passwords will be the only ones ever in your system). I've seen business needs change to often in the past to rely on assumptions like that in critical business areas (which this may not be - obviously I don't know what this does). The problem is that business needs change. Maybe it's just me, but in my experience things that were meant to be temporary or limited to just a couple people inevitably turn into critical business applications used by everyone in the company, and all of a sudden you have a weak password scheme protecting critical business infrastructure. It won't always happen because people are trying to cut corners, but because 12 months down the road you forget that you didn't use a great password hash, or you leave and then next guy doesn't look into it, or you're under pressure to meet a deadline and you forget, or, or, or...
In my experience businesses end up having security breaches not because security is hard but because they don't understand the need for spending time (aka money) on good security practices and cut corners where they shouldn't. Sure, right now a great password hashing scheme doesn't matter, but can you really guarantee that that won't change in the future? If you don't have time to put in proper password hashing now, can you guarantee that when the needs change and it suddenly does matter, that you will have time to do it right then?
Of course at the end of the day every business needs to make money, and sometimes "Let's keep this simple for now to get this out the door" is a perfectly reasonable answer. Just be careful though because making that decision too often is how companies end up with systems filled with security holes. As a company you have to find that balance for yourself. The trouble is that when companies chronically skimp on the security it is ultimately their customers that hurt the most.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I agree with Mike and Royce in their answers, and don't feel the need to repeat what they covered well. However I wanted to more directly address this comment of yours:
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on
that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be
used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high
entropy.
This piece of information is both important and not-important. Here's why:
The case for password hashing
It's always important to remember why we hash passwords, and it all boils down to password reuse. The reason why password hashing is so important is because when your system gets compromised and passwords are stolen, it isn't just access to your site that is compromised, but access to every site where your users have re-used the same email/password combination which (as we know) happens a lot. Password hashing is about protecting users from themselves. If absolutely everyone used strong and unique passwords on every site, then password hashing would be a lot less necessary. It would still have some value because there are use cases where a hacker might gain read-only access to a database dump, so hashed passwords can provide some protection against attackers getting actual access to your system in. However, if people used strong and unique passwords everywhere then password hashing would become more of a secondary concern instead of the absolutely-critical necessity it is today.
So, if you can guarantee that every user of your system will only ever use strong and unique passwords (i.e. passwords that have not been used on other sites), then I think that even something simple like SHA2 would actually be a perfectly reasonable choice, regardless of whether or not better functions were available.
BUT: changing business needs
However, I would encourage you to double check your assumptions (that strong unique passwords will be the only ones ever in your system). I've seen business needs change to often in the past to rely on assumptions like that in critical business areas (which this may not be - obviously I don't know what this does). The problem is that business needs change. Maybe it's just me, but in my experience things that were meant to be temporary or limited to just a couple people inevitably turn into critical business applications used by everyone in the company, and all of a sudden you have a weak password scheme protecting critical business infrastructure. It won't always happen because people are trying to cut corners, but because 12 months down the road you forget that you didn't use a great password hash, or you leave and then next guy doesn't look into it, or you're under pressure to meet a deadline and you forget, or, or, or...
In my experience businesses end up having security breaches not because security is hard but because they don't understand the need for spending time (aka money) on good security practices and cut corners where they shouldn't. Sure, right now a great password hashing scheme doesn't matter, but can you really guarantee that that won't change in the future? If you don't have time to put in proper password hashing now, can you guarantee that when the needs change and it suddenly does matter, that you will have time to do it right then?
Of course at the end of the day every business needs to make money, and sometimes "Let's keep this simple for now to get this out the door" is a perfectly reasonable answer. Just be careful though because making that decision too often is how companies end up with systems filled with security holes. As a company you have to find that balance for yourself. The trouble is that when companies chronically skimp on the security it is ultimately their customers that hurt the most.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I agree with Mike and Royce in their answers, and don't feel the need to repeat what they covered well. However I wanted to more directly address this comment of yours:
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on
that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be
used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high
entropy.
This piece of information is both important and not-important. Here's why:
The case for password hashing
It's always important to remember why we hash passwords, and it all boils down to password reuse. The reason why password hashing is so important is because when your system gets compromised and passwords are stolen, it isn't just access to your site that is compromised, but access to every site where your users have re-used the same email/password combination which (as we know) happens a lot. Password hashing is about protecting users from themselves. If absolutely everyone used strong and unique passwords on every site, then password hashing would be a lot less necessary. It would still have some value because there are use cases where a hacker might gain read-only access to a database dump, so hashed passwords can provide some protection against attackers getting actual access to your system in. However, if people used strong and unique passwords everywhere then password hashing would become more of a secondary concern instead of the absolutely-critical necessity it is today.
So, if you can guarantee that every user of your system will only ever use strong and unique passwords (i.e. passwords that have not been used on other sites), then I think that even something simple like SHA2 would actually be a perfectly reasonable choice, regardless of whether or not better functions were available.
BUT: changing business needs
However, I would encourage you to double check your assumptions (that strong unique passwords will be the only ones ever in your system). I've seen business needs change to often in the past to rely on assumptions like that in critical business areas (which this may not be - obviously I don't know what this does). The problem is that business needs change. Maybe it's just me, but in my experience things that were meant to be temporary or limited to just a couple people inevitably turn into critical business applications used by everyone in the company, and all of a sudden you have a weak password scheme protecting critical business infrastructure. It won't always happen because people are trying to cut corners, but because 12 months down the road you forget that you didn't use a great password hash, or you leave and then next guy doesn't look into it, or you're under pressure to meet a deadline and you forget, or, or, or...
In my experience businesses end up having security breaches not because security is hard but because they don't understand the need for spending time (aka money) on good security practices and cut corners where they shouldn't. Sure, right now a great password hashing scheme doesn't matter, but can you really guarantee that that won't change in the future? If you don't have time to put in proper password hashing now, can you guarantee that when the needs change and it suddenly does matter, that you will have time to do it right then?
Of course at the end of the day every business needs to make money, and sometimes "Let's keep this simple for now to get this out the door" is a perfectly reasonable answer. Just be careful though because making that decision too often is how companies end up with systems filled with security holes. As a company you have to find that balance for yourself. The trouble is that when companies chronically skimp on the security it is ultimately their customers that hurt the most.
I agree with Mike and Royce in their answers, and don't feel the need to repeat what they covered well. However I wanted to more directly address this comment of yours:
Additional Information: I will be the only one storing passwords on
that system, so I can 1) guarantee that none of the passwords will be
used twice and 2) ensure that the passwords will have a very high
entropy.
This piece of information is both important and not-important. Here's why:
The case for password hashing
It's always important to remember why we hash passwords, and it all boils down to password reuse. The reason why password hashing is so important is because when your system gets compromised and passwords are stolen, it isn't just access to your site that is compromised, but access to every site where your users have re-used the same email/password combination which (as we know) happens a lot. Password hashing is about protecting users from themselves. If absolutely everyone used strong and unique passwords on every site, then password hashing would be a lot less necessary. It would still have some value because there are use cases where a hacker might gain read-only access to a database dump, so hashed passwords can provide some protection against attackers getting actual access to your system in. However, if people used strong and unique passwords everywhere then password hashing would become more of a secondary concern instead of the absolutely-critical necessity it is today.
So, if you can guarantee that every user of your system will only ever use strong and unique passwords (i.e. passwords that have not been used on other sites), then I think that even something simple like SHA2 would actually be a perfectly reasonable choice, regardless of whether or not better functions were available.
BUT: changing business needs
However, I would encourage you to double check your assumptions (that strong unique passwords will be the only ones ever in your system). I've seen business needs change to often in the past to rely on assumptions like that in critical business areas (which this may not be - obviously I don't know what this does). The problem is that business needs change. Maybe it's just me, but in my experience things that were meant to be temporary or limited to just a couple people inevitably turn into critical business applications used by everyone in the company, and all of a sudden you have a weak password scheme protecting critical business infrastructure. It won't always happen because people are trying to cut corners, but because 12 months down the road you forget that you didn't use a great password hash, or you leave and then next guy doesn't look into it, or you're under pressure to meet a deadline and you forget, or, or, or...
In my experience businesses end up having security breaches not because security is hard but because they don't understand the need for spending time (aka money) on good security practices and cut corners where they shouldn't. Sure, right now a great password hashing scheme doesn't matter, but can you really guarantee that that won't change in the future? If you don't have time to put in proper password hashing now, can you guarantee that when the needs change and it suddenly does matter, that you will have time to do it right then?
Of course at the end of the day every business needs to make money, and sometimes "Let's keep this simple for now to get this out the door" is a perfectly reasonable answer. Just be careful though because making that decision too often is how companies end up with systems filled with security holes. As a company you have to find that balance for yourself. The trouble is that when companies chronically skimp on the security it is ultimately their customers that hurt the most.
answered 8 hours ago
Conor Mancone
9,37132145
9,37132145
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0
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YES, even low quality hash is much better than storing passwords in plaintext
If I understand you update, someone else will be doing the authentication (unrelated to you and your database), and you will use your password hash database only for duplicate password detection? Requirement of determining the password entropy would be based on plaintext, and is unrelated to storing password hashes, right?
Then you can store in your hash database just a small part of calculated sha2 hash of salt+plaintext (for example, storing only low 8 bytes of 32 bytes returned by sha256), which will be plenty enough to detect duplicates with no false positives in real life, but still not enough to allow the attacker to use rainbow tables to guess original password in case your database is stolen.
(Disclaimer: if you ARE doing authentication and not only duplicate password detection, than dropping part ot the hash would obviously be terrible idea!)
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
YES, even low quality hash is much better than storing passwords in plaintext
If I understand you update, someone else will be doing the authentication (unrelated to you and your database), and you will use your password hash database only for duplicate password detection? Requirement of determining the password entropy would be based on plaintext, and is unrelated to storing password hashes, right?
Then you can store in your hash database just a small part of calculated sha2 hash of salt+plaintext (for example, storing only low 8 bytes of 32 bytes returned by sha256), which will be plenty enough to detect duplicates with no false positives in real life, but still not enough to allow the attacker to use rainbow tables to guess original password in case your database is stolen.
(Disclaimer: if you ARE doing authentication and not only duplicate password detection, than dropping part ot the hash would obviously be terrible idea!)
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
YES, even low quality hash is much better than storing passwords in plaintext
If I understand you update, someone else will be doing the authentication (unrelated to you and your database), and you will use your password hash database only for duplicate password detection? Requirement of determining the password entropy would be based on plaintext, and is unrelated to storing password hashes, right?
Then you can store in your hash database just a small part of calculated sha2 hash of salt+plaintext (for example, storing only low 8 bytes of 32 bytes returned by sha256), which will be plenty enough to detect duplicates with no false positives in real life, but still not enough to allow the attacker to use rainbow tables to guess original password in case your database is stolen.
(Disclaimer: if you ARE doing authentication and not only duplicate password detection, than dropping part ot the hash would obviously be terrible idea!)
YES, even low quality hash is much better than storing passwords in plaintext
If I understand you update, someone else will be doing the authentication (unrelated to you and your database), and you will use your password hash database only for duplicate password detection? Requirement of determining the password entropy would be based on plaintext, and is unrelated to storing password hashes, right?
Then you can store in your hash database just a small part of calculated sha2 hash of salt+plaintext (for example, storing only low 8 bytes of 32 bytes returned by sha256), which will be plenty enough to detect duplicates with no false positives in real life, but still not enough to allow the attacker to use rainbow tables to guess original password in case your database is stolen.
(Disclaimer: if you ARE doing authentication and not only duplicate password detection, than dropping part ot the hash would obviously be terrible idea!)
answered 4 hours ago
Matija Nalis
845612
845612
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0
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To answer your question: yes, use the best algorithm you have access to. If you have several, you might combine them (note: concatenation of passwords, e.g. sha1(password)+md5sum(password), is more vulnerable to guessing, since an attacker could pick which hash they want to guess, but collisions are much less likely, since both passwords have to match. Do use random, different salt for each password.
You say your system "doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords". I would encourage you to reexamine that assumption.
Almost every modern programming language has implementations of secure hashes. You do not necessarily need it implemented in a pre-made, pre-installed library - for example, if your program is written in C, you should be able to find implementations of any hash in C, as a stand-alone function. Even tiny processors like Arduino have bcrypt and PBKDF2, off the shelf. The extra labour involved is minimal. You could even implement it yourself (but be very careful, and test very thoroughly!).
I do not doubt that there are exceptions, but there aren't many.
add a comment |
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0
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To answer your question: yes, use the best algorithm you have access to. If you have several, you might combine them (note: concatenation of passwords, e.g. sha1(password)+md5sum(password), is more vulnerable to guessing, since an attacker could pick which hash they want to guess, but collisions are much less likely, since both passwords have to match. Do use random, different salt for each password.
You say your system "doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords". I would encourage you to reexamine that assumption.
Almost every modern programming language has implementations of secure hashes. You do not necessarily need it implemented in a pre-made, pre-installed library - for example, if your program is written in C, you should be able to find implementations of any hash in C, as a stand-alone function. Even tiny processors like Arduino have bcrypt and PBKDF2, off the shelf. The extra labour involved is minimal. You could even implement it yourself (but be very careful, and test very thoroughly!).
I do not doubt that there are exceptions, but there aren't many.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
To answer your question: yes, use the best algorithm you have access to. If you have several, you might combine them (note: concatenation of passwords, e.g. sha1(password)+md5sum(password), is more vulnerable to guessing, since an attacker could pick which hash they want to guess, but collisions are much less likely, since both passwords have to match. Do use random, different salt for each password.
You say your system "doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords". I would encourage you to reexamine that assumption.
Almost every modern programming language has implementations of secure hashes. You do not necessarily need it implemented in a pre-made, pre-installed library - for example, if your program is written in C, you should be able to find implementations of any hash in C, as a stand-alone function. Even tiny processors like Arduino have bcrypt and PBKDF2, off the shelf. The extra labour involved is minimal. You could even implement it yourself (but be very careful, and test very thoroughly!).
I do not doubt that there are exceptions, but there aren't many.
To answer your question: yes, use the best algorithm you have access to. If you have several, you might combine them (note: concatenation of passwords, e.g. sha1(password)+md5sum(password), is more vulnerable to guessing, since an attacker could pick which hash they want to guess, but collisions are much less likely, since both passwords have to match. Do use random, different salt for each password.
You say your system "doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords". I would encourage you to reexamine that assumption.
Almost every modern programming language has implementations of secure hashes. You do not necessarily need it implemented in a pre-made, pre-installed library - for example, if your program is written in C, you should be able to find implementations of any hash in C, as a stand-alone function. Even tiny processors like Arduino have bcrypt and PBKDF2, off the shelf. The extra labour involved is minimal. You could even implement it yourself (but be very careful, and test very thoroughly!).
I do not doubt that there are exceptions, but there aren't many.
answered 4 hours ago
AMADANON Inc.
1,43369
1,43369
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0
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I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
The strict answer to your question is yes. The reason is that fast hashes won't protect weak passwords, but they will protect very strong ones, and that is strictly better than plaintext.
However, if you have SHA-1 or SHA-2 there are are very few (if any!) excuses not to use PBKDF2. Yeah, the common advice is "don't roll your own crypto," but if you've got SHA-1 or SHA-2 that's already the key building block for PBKDF2, and for the case of password hashing writing your own implementation of PBKDF2 can hardly be worse than not. Here's the relevant RFC and section:
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2898#section-5.2
When they say "pseudorandom function" you should use some HMAC variant (ideally HMAC-SHA-512, but any of them will do). Your library likely already has HMAC implementations, but if it doesn't, password hashing is again a case where implementing your own can't be worse than not.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
The strict answer to your question is yes. The reason is that fast hashes won't protect weak passwords, but they will protect very strong ones, and that is strictly better than plaintext.
However, if you have SHA-1 or SHA-2 there are are very few (if any!) excuses not to use PBKDF2. Yeah, the common advice is "don't roll your own crypto," but if you've got SHA-1 or SHA-2 that's already the key building block for PBKDF2, and for the case of password hashing writing your own implementation of PBKDF2 can hardly be worse than not. Here's the relevant RFC and section:
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2898#section-5.2
When they say "pseudorandom function" you should use some HMAC variant (ideally HMAC-SHA-512, but any of them will do). Your library likely already has HMAC implementations, but if it doesn't, password hashing is again a case where implementing your own can't be worse than not.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
The strict answer to your question is yes. The reason is that fast hashes won't protect weak passwords, but they will protect very strong ones, and that is strictly better than plaintext.
However, if you have SHA-1 or SHA-2 there are are very few (if any!) excuses not to use PBKDF2. Yeah, the common advice is "don't roll your own crypto," but if you've got SHA-1 or SHA-2 that's already the key building block for PBKDF2, and for the case of password hashing writing your own implementation of PBKDF2 can hardly be worse than not. Here's the relevant RFC and section:
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2898#section-5.2
When they say "pseudorandom function" you should use some HMAC variant (ideally HMAC-SHA-512, but any of them will do). Your library likely already has HMAC implementations, but if it doesn't, password hashing is again a case where implementing your own can't be worse than not.
I have to store passwords on a system which doesn't offer any of the algorithms recommended for hashing passwords (e.g. bcrypt, scrypt or PBKDF2). Would it be better to use an unsuitable algorithm (e.g. SHA-1 or SHA-2 family) before using none?
The strict answer to your question is yes. The reason is that fast hashes won't protect weak passwords, but they will protect very strong ones, and that is strictly better than plaintext.
However, if you have SHA-1 or SHA-2 there are are very few (if any!) excuses not to use PBKDF2. Yeah, the common advice is "don't roll your own crypto," but if you've got SHA-1 or SHA-2 that's already the key building block for PBKDF2, and for the case of password hashing writing your own implementation of PBKDF2 can hardly be worse than not. Here's the relevant RFC and section:
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2898#section-5.2
When they say "pseudorandom function" you should use some HMAC variant (ideally HMAC-SHA-512, but any of them will do). Your library likely already has HMAC implementations, but if it doesn't, password hashing is again a case where implementing your own can't be worse than not.
answered 38 mins ago
Luis Casillas
6,75721424
6,75721424
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So you are generating the passwords and managing them? They are not user passwords? Does the authentication mechanism exist already or is this a new feature?
– schroeder♦
9 hours ago
5
Do you have the ability to stretch the algorithm - to apply the same algorithm many times? If so, do that at a minimum.
– Royce Williams
9 hours ago
It seems like you have a high degree of control over the passwords to be stored.. Do you not have a similar level of control over how they are stored? Can you not choose to find something better?
– Steve-O
7 hours ago
1
I'm confused. If you're adding the authentication code, how do you not have the ability to pull in a library that implements newer hashing protocols? I'm also wondering if you're doing something like added an admin user to a device that it then distributed? I think this question lacks enough detail to really be answerable. Please provide more details about what you're implementing that will contain the password (a web interface, an IoT device, whatever) and why you need to lock anything down. (If you're distributing a device, then there's no point in even having the password.)
– jpmc26
4 hours ago
1
No, that presents a false sense of security, which is even worse, luckily there's encryption services you can interface with, here's one: docs.aws.amazon.com/kms/latest/developerguide/overview.html
– RandomUs1r
3 hours ago